View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:46 pm



Reply to topic  [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 Literary irritations .... 
Author Message
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Just for my own information, Don, did you have any trouble with MacGregor and Mary Stewart's big arguement in The Frigate Captain?

Or any place else in the book for that matter?

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:45 pm
Profile WWW
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:34 am
Posts: 1471
Location: Virginia, USA
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
Just for my own information, Don, did you have any trouble with MacGregor and Mary Stewart's big arguement in The Frigate Captain? Or any place else in the book for that matter?

John, [re: pages 264-265] when you write sentences like the following four, I have little trouble understanding and they barely slow me down. "I found Miss Mary here by the side o' the road, near swoonin' frae the heat. It isna richt that she should be oot, not in her condition. I hae a mind to speak to Doctor Fred aboot it. He'll order her to take guid care, on medical grounds."

However, in things like [page 265] "I' fact, ye hae seid ower muckle" the last two words are Greek to me. Or "ye glaikit kimmer" [same page] is likewise a mystery.

I applaud your effort to bring Ian MacGregor "alive" through his speech, but this is just difficult for me. I cannot speak for other Americans.

I have trouble with some Scottish oral speech also. There is a old British TV comedy titled "May to December" being shown currently on the local PBS station. The secretary was recently replaced with a Scottish actress (Ashley Jensen). When a single sentence of her's is sandwiched between the speech of the other actors, I usually have no problem understanding the thrust of the conversation. When Miss Jensen has a long speech, my mind locks up. Her deep Scottish accent becomes just blah... blah... blah.

The first examples of your book above are like reading a "light" Scottish accent. The latter are like "heavy" accent. In addition, taking a contemporary word or phrase and converting it into heavily accented speech is absolutely certain to flummox me.

Hope this helps.

Don


Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:05 am
Profile
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Don, It's quite understandable that you would have trouble with the later phrases. They are, to the best of my knowledge, actual Scots Gaelic rather than English with a Scottish accent. For the most part MacGregor's accent is a fairly light one but when he's angry or upset it gets heavier, and he only lapses into his native tongue when he speaking to another Scot for the most part. Although he'll sometimes speak it to Sinclair who, as you saw, is also fluent in the language.

I'm a bit surprised that you had so much trouble with ower muckle. I would have expected the context to make the meaning fairly plain. Glaikit kimmer, on the other hand is a tough one, which is one reason I had Sinclair translate the exchange for Tara and Jennifer.

John

P.S. Perhaps I can help your other Scottish problems a bit with this glossary that helped me with that passage.

Abune =above
Ae =one
Afore =before
Aft =often
Ain =own
Amang =among
An' =and
An Aw =as well, to
Anither =another
Auld =old
Auld lang syne =Former days and friends
Aw =all
Awa =away
Ay =yes
Aye =always
Bairn =child
Bear the gree =take the prize
Beezer =something excellent
Belang =belong
Ben =mountain
Bide/Byde =stay
Birkie = dandy
Birks =birch trees
Bluidy =bloody
Bodie =person
Bogle =demon, peek-a-boo
Bonnie =beautiful
Boorachie =small hill
Bothy =hut for unmarried, male farm workers.
Brae =hill or slope
Braid =broad
Brak =hollow in a hill
Brasselgeicht =noisy road
Braw =fine, excellent, brave
Breeks =trousers
Bricht =bright
Brither =brother
Burn(ie) =small stream
Ca' =drive
Caddie=messenger boy
Caller =fresh
Cannie =careful, quiet
Cantie =jolly, cheerful
Cauf =calf
Cauld =cold
Cheil =child
Clout =patch
Close enclosure, =Courtyard; entry, alley; accessway to
Common =stair
Coatie =coat
Coo =cow
Coorie doon =nestle or snuggle down close
Corbett =hollow in side of mountain
Corbies =crows, ravens
Corrie =hollow on side of a mountain or b/t mountains
Couthie =friendly, sympathetic
Crannog =ancient dwelling constructed in a loch
Creel =basket
Cuik =cook
Cuif =fool
Daffin' =dallying
Dauntonly =overcome
Dicht =scold
Dinna =do not
Dochter =daughter
Doon/Doun =down
Douce=gentle, respectable
Dour =sullen
Dowie =sad
Drap =drop
Drumlie =muddy, cloudy
Dule =mourning clothes
Duniwassals=gentlemen
Dursna =is not
Dwalt=dwelt
Een =eye
Efternuin =afternoon
Fa' =cause, lot, fall
Fain =loving
Fairlie =marvel
Fause =false
Fautes =falts
Frae =from
Fail dyke =wall of turf
Faught =fight
Fleeching=coaxing
Furr =furrow
Gab =talk
Gae =go
Gane =gone
Gang =go
Gar =make
Geggie =travelling theatre
Gey =very
Ghaist =ghost
Gie =give
Gin =if
Glaikit =foolish
Gled =buzzardbrankie, violence
Gloaming=twilight
Gomeral =fool
Gowans = daisies
Gowk =fool
Grat =cried
Gret =great
Grigalach =Clan MacGregor
Guid =good
Guid-willie waught = friendly draught
Guidman =husband
Guidwife =wife
Hae =have
Hairst =harvest
Haugh =land beside a river
Hause-bane =neck bone
Haut =haughty
Hame =home
Havers =nonsense
Hied =head
Hoddin gray =tweed
Ilka =every
Ingle =fireside
Jo =dear
Ken =know
Kenspeckle =conspicuous
Kimmer =young girl
Kirk =church
Knee Hicht =small child, no taller than your knee
Knowes =knolls, hills
Kye/Kyne =cows, cattleLad,
Laddie =boy
Laird =major landowner
Lang =long
Lass, Lassie =girl
Lave =leave
Lavrock =skylark
Leglen =stool
Licht =light
Loch =lake
Lofe=honour
Losh! =Lord!
Lugs =ears
Mair =more
Maist =most
Man/Mon =man, husband
Maun =must
Mavis =song thrush
Micht =might
Mickle =small quantity
Minch=channel between the Outer and Inner Hebrides
Mind =remember
Mither =mother
Monie =many
Morn =morning
Muckle =big, great, large,
Much=many
Nae bad =not bad
Ness =a headland
Nicht =night
O' =of
Onie =any
Oniebodie =anyone
Oor =our
Oot =out
Ower =over
Ower muckle =too much
Philabeg=small kilt
Puir =poor
Rant =play a lively tune
Richt =right
Richt Nou =immediately
Rickle =heap
Rivin'=tearing
Rowes =rolls along
Sae =so
Sark =shirt
Sassenach =English person
Shieling =highland cottage
Sic =such
Skelp =smack
Shank =walk
Shoon =shoes
Slaes =blackthorns
Snapper and stoyte =stumble and stagger
Socht =sought
Sodger =soldier
Solan =gannet
Sonsie =chubby and sturdy
Soople Tam =a spinning top
Sowthers=puts to rights
Speir =speak
Speug =sparrow, toddler
Stramash =uproar, disturbance
Strath =river valley, broad and flat
Stound =astonished, throb painfully
Stowp = tankard
Suin =soon
Swankies=young lads
Syne =ago, then, since
Tae =to
Tak' =take
Tanner =sixpence
Tapsalteerie=topsy-turvy
Tear =a spree
Tent =heed
The day =today
Theek =thatch
Thegither =together
The morn/morra =tomorrow
The nou =just now
Thegither =together
Thrang =busy
Toom =empty
Toun =town
Towmond =twelvemonth
Vennel narrow =alley or lane between buildings
Verra =very
Waddin'=wedding
Wae =woe
Waly=expression of grief, woe
Wark =work
War'ly =worldly
Warld =world
Watter =water, river
Waur =worse
Wean =child
Wee =little, small
Wee =bit a little
Wee Cutty =mischievous and disobedient
Weel =well
Weir=war
Wheen, a =a few
Wheesht be quiet =shut up!
Whippie =rope of twisted straw
White cockades=white rosette (the Jacobite symbol)
Whigamore=Presbyterian
Whyles =sometimes
Wi' =with
Winna =will not
Wot =knows
Wrang =wrong
Wumman =woman, wife
Wynd narrow, =winding street
Ye =you
Yowes =ewes

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:05 am
Profile WWW
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:32 pm
Posts: 2960
Location: Hawaii
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
Don, It's quite understandable that you would have trouble with the later phrases. They are, to the best of my knowledge, actual Scots Gaelic rather than English with a Scottish accent.

While some words are derived from Gaelic (braes = braighe, pibroch = piobaireachd, and so on...), I think the term you want is "Scots dialect."

Here's a brief example of the differences:

Gaelic --> Theid mi dhachaidh

English --> I will go home

Dialect --> I wull gae hame

***

To return this to naval talk, here's a bit from BHall's Voyages and Travels:

"I had also unluckily taken it into my head that I spoke English with remarkable purity—a sad mistake! Upon one occasion I missed some money; and a brother-mid seeing me in distress, asked what was the matter.

'Oh,' said I, 'I have tint a half-guinea.'

'Tint!' cried the other, 'what's that?'

At this moment on of my quizzing countrymen happening to pass, and hearing the question, burst into a laugh, and explained, that 'tint,' being interpreted, meant 'lost;' adding, 'none but a Sawney from the north' would have used such a barbarous word, unknown in England."

_________________
I have the honour to be, &c.
susan


Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:22 am
Profile YIM
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:34 am
Posts: 1471
Location: Virginia, USA
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
P.S. Perhaps I can help your other Scottish problems a bit with this glossary that helped me with that passage.

Thanks for the list (and I’m sure that I and others here may make good use of it*), but I have access to dictionaries of other languages too and do not use them "that much" when reading fictional stories. I look-up plenty of technical stuff and words important to a plot without puzzling out every foreign word in a conversation.

Having a character explain some words afterwards is a good device and I'm glad you do that. Although, I have to say that I have spent time on the computer and got a little irritated, when returning to the book, to find the same information I just looked-up just two pages later. I did not jot down any puzzling Scottish stuff when I first read your book so today I just flipped back to find something when you asked your question. I, therefore, missed the explanation this time. This dialect business, to me, is a minor irritation depending on how many characters are speaking Scottish, or fractured English with French or Spanish accents and corrupted English words thrown in with foreign words. Kind of like Jack Aubrey in reverse. :D

I suspect that reading "any" dialect is difficult (to some extent or other) for most readers. And, I also suspect, it is not so easy to write either. :D I have read some stories written in Southern US dialects and vocabulary and found it hard even after living in the South all my life. There are local expressions that differ even within a single state much less the whole southern region here.

It took me six months to read the first half of "Master and Commander" since I had to look-up so very many contemporary things. I’m glad I kept at it, since I have now read O’Brian’s series twice. I wrote a lot of margin notes the first time and the second time was much more of an enjoyable experience. I wasn’t flipping through dictionaries and running to the Internet every page.

I think dialect is the same for me. The more I have to puzzle out simple dialog, the less enjoyable it is. It is not that I won’t do it, because, for example, I have read whole books that contained 18th century contemporary spelling, but it is just not as enjoyable (a speed bump, not a road block). I could understand someone new to AoS literature picking up the "wrong" book (for them) and never trying another book from any author writing in that genre.

I would never suggest to anyone that all books should be written for 12 year olds, because I am one who truly enjoys learning. I like to be challenged. Its a priority thing, I guess. I would rather look-up what an Armstrong canon is than the Scottish word for young girl. Especially if I have already been told that the character is a young girl.

As with all my opinions here, my comments are just that, my personal opinions. Everyone is welcome to their own, with my compliments.

* I printed it out for the next time I run into this. Thanks again.

Don


Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:11 am
Profile
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
You're more than welcome, Don. Under the circumstances I'm glad I started with Hornblower and not Lucky Jack. I'm afraid he wouldn't have been very lucky for me at all as a beginner. ;)

Susan, I expect you're right there now that I think of it. Scots Gaelic would tend to have a lot more in common with the old Celtic tongue than the Latin/Germanic based English. Although there would be some bleed over.

I am reminded of something that the late James Doohan said when someone complained about how Scotty's accent in Star Trek wasn't authentic. Now I'm paraphrasing here but basically he said that he'd fought alongside a Scot who spoke with a very strong Scottish accent during World War Two. "I couldn't understand a word he said, and if I'd used that accent then neither would you."

Flavor was all I was going for here. Did I get things wrong? Almost certainly. I've never even been to Scotland, let alone lived there long enough to get a feel for the culture and language. I'm sure I made mistakes regarding England as well. But if I got the flavor right and the story was reasonably entertaining then I think it all came out right enough in the end.

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:19 am
Profile WWW
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:32 pm
Posts: 2960
Location: Hawaii
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
Scots Gaelic would tend to have a lot more in common with the old Celtic tongue than the Latin/Germanic based English. Although there would be some bleed over.

Scots Gaelic is a Celtic language. Basically there are two types of Celtic languages P-Celtic (Brythonic) and Q-Celtic (Goidelic). Brythonic includes Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. Goidelic includes Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, and Manx. The "P" and the "Q" have to do with the consonant sounds. Anyway...

If you wrote your text in Scots Gaelic, only people who speak/read it would understand it.

Here's an example from a song called Bonaparte (from the Scottish group Capercaillie), which is about Scottish soldiers going to fight against...Bonaparte.

Luchd nan osan gearr 's nam feileadh
Cota sgarlaid orr' mar eideadh
Gum bu ghasd' iad an am eirigh
'S iad nach geilleadh an deidh an leon.


The only familiar thing to English speakers in the verse above is "cota sgarlaid." If you say it aloud you'll see it's "scarlet coat."

Sorry I'm being sort of anal about this...I'm just proud I still remember stuff from the Celtic Civilization and British/Irish folklore classes I took in college. :P Helps having gone to a college with a Welsh name. LOL

_________________
I have the honour to be, &c.
susan


Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:39 am
Profile YIM
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Only "sort of"? :lol:

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:57 pm
Profile WWW
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:32 pm
Posts: 2960
Location: Hawaii
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
Only "sort of"? :lol:

Well, at least I saved you from doing some basic research in case you want to write more about it.

_________________
I have the honour to be, &c.
susan


Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:25 am
Profile YIM
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Don't worry, Susan. I was just having a little fun with you. 8)

What school did you go to btw? Mine certainly didn't offer Scots Gaelic or or any other Celtic languages. For that matter people in my neck of the woods can't even say the word correctly. They insist on using a soft 'c' , even the ones who should know better. :roll:

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:11 am
Profile WWW
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:02 am
Posts: 2747
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Post 
..... Gaelic....and whilst on the subject ..... and if you look at the video link over on the right, you will see that it actually opened.

_________________
- Mil -
aka Mary ....


Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:33 am
Profile YIM
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Interesting.

I can't say I have much of an opinion one way or the other., but how do our Britons here feel about this?

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:54 am
Profile WWW
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2002 9:02 am
Posts: 2747
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
Interesting.

I can't say I have much of an opinion one way or the other., but how do our Britons here feel about this?



.... well, reference to the gaelic language being taught in schools, I raise no objection at all. The UK is a small country comprising four individual nations within, each having their own identities including speech. The Welsh language is being taught in schools within the principality, so why not gaelic in Scots schools.

Incidentally, John, dialects vary so much within England; here in the fens at Wisbech, we speak much differenty to those, say, 12 miles away at King's Lynn, or even, south Lincolnshire, 10 miles away.

I imagine they do within the US; I have visited the US several times, but have not made a study of the variance of accent/dialect within a small area of it.

_________________
- Mil -
aka Mary ....


Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:15 am
Profile YIM
Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:32 pm
Posts: 2960
Location: Hawaii
Post 
Dr. Fred wrote:
What school did you go to btw? Mine certainly didn't offer Scots Gaelic or or any other Celtic languages.

I went to Bryn Mawr.

I audited the Celtic Civ class at Bryn Mawr because my class schedule was already full that semester, but I took the British Folklore class at U Penn for credit.

_________________
I have the honour to be, &c.
susan


Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:02 am
Profile YIM
Midshipman
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:26 pm
Posts: 32
Post 
Mil Goose wrote:
Incidentally, John, dialects vary so much within England; here in the fens at Wisbech, we speak much differenty to those, say, 12 miles away at King's Lynn, or even, south Lincolnshire, 10 miles away.

I imagine they do within the US; I have visited the US several times, but have not made a study of the variance of accent/dialect within a small area of it.


They vary, but not over such short distances, Mary. 10 or 12 miles is only one or two towns over even in New England which is pretty densely populated. It's only when you travel quite a ways that the dialect really changes for the most part.

For example when I visit my brother's summer cottage on the Maine seacoast, about 100 or so miles away, I don't really notice any change in the regional dialect from the one back home. Likewise when I visit him at his year-round house in the Chesapeake in Maryland, about 400 miles on the opposite direction, the differences are still very minor. But if I were to stop in New York City there would be a distinct accent. Actually there would be several distinct accents.

But New York City is the exception rather than the rule. A hundred years or so ago the accents were much more pronounced and widespread. But with television and so many people moving from one part of the country to another, the old regional dialects are slowly disappearing.

Too bad we can't get rid of the old hatreds so easily.

_________________
"Fred Bassingford is a law unto himself, Pat, as you will find out if your surgeon is as persuasive as I think he is." - Commodore John Sinclair from Broad Pendant


Fri Aug 25, 2006 10:17 pm
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.