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 Food and Drink 
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Lieutenant

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Post Sandwich
Don,

I have always understood, and most references would seem to agree, that the snack of meat between two pieces of bread was named after the 4th Earl of Sandwich and comes from his addiction to gambling. His idea was so that he wouldn't have to leave the gaming table to eat and it would also prevent him from getting his fingers soiled. Try googling 'Sandwich plus origins', as I did, however and you come up with quite differing stories as to the location, gaming house, restaurant, etc. I still plump for the gaming table.

Dewey Lamdin and the 'Shrewsbury'? That's a new one on me! Is he trying a piece of one-up-manship, or does he know more than he lets on?

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Kester


Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:47 pm
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Post Re: Sandwich
Devenish wrote:
Try googling 'Sandwich plus origins', as I did, however and you come up with quite differing stories as to the location, gaming house, restaurant, etc.
I did find, when I was searching, that the line of British Earls of Shrewsbury (Talbot family) predates the discovery of America. If one of them has a connection to placing meat between slices of bread, it was not evident from my search. Since Lambdin does not use this bit of information to further the plot, the appearance is a puzzle. It seems to me that this is some bit of trivia that the author has run across and included for background. Since Shrewsbury is not only a title but places in England and the US, there are way too many hits to do any meaningful research. It was surprising how many shops are selling sandwiches in Shrewsbury. Oh, my.

Don


Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:44 pm
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But surely everybody knows that it was Shrewsburies that gentlemen snacked on in the coffee houses, until the Earl of Sandwich murdered the Duke of Shrewsbury in order to steal his invention?

A campaign to restore the name in the 1960s seems ultimately to have failed.

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Tony


Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:43 pm
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Tony wrote:
But surely everybody knows that it was Shrewsburies that gentlemen snacked on in the coffee houses, until the Earl of Sandwich murdered the Duke of Shrewsbury in order to steal his invention?

A campaign to restore the name in the 1960s seems ultimately to have failed.
Tony, Noting the spelling difference, I went back on-line. From what I found I assume that this is just a big inside joke by Lambdin inspired by the failed attempt by the Boston DJ in the 1960's. Not really that funny, to my mind. Shame I couldn't find any way to contact Lambdin to confirm this with him. I guess we will have to stick with the Earl of Sandwich story.

BTW, the only Earl of Shrewsbury to be elevated to Duke died the same year that the 4th Earl of Sandwich was born so I guess old Montague beat him to death with a loaded nappy. Ha!

Don


Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:53 pm
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Yes, only a joke for sure. The original 60's joke seems to have had some momentum, with various Boston restaurants calling their sandwiches "shrewsburies". It seems a bit lame to resurrect it now.

Gibbon's memoirs are the earliest surviving written record in his entry for 24 Nov 1762:

"Nov. 24.—I dined at the Cocoa Tree with *****; who, under a great appearance of oddity, conceals more real honour, good sense, and even knowledge, than half those who laugh at him. We went thence to the play (the Spanish Friar); and when it was over, returned to the Cocoa Tree. That respectable body, of which I have the honour of being a member, affords every evening a sight truly English. Twenty or thirty, perhaps, of the first men in the kingdom, in point of fashion and fortune, supping at little tables covered with a napkin, in the middle of a coffee-room, upon a bit of cold meat, or a Sandwich, and drinking a glass of punch. At present, we are full of king's counsellors and lords of the bedchamber ; who, having jumped into the ministry, make a very singular medley of their old principles and language with their modern ones."

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Tony


Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:09 pm
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Tony wrote:
Yes, only a joke for sure. The original 60's joke seems to have had some momentum, with various Boston restaurants calling their sandwiches "shrewsburies". It seems a bit lame to resurrect it now.

"Lame" sounds correct to me too. Lambdin's American roots are showing. Including an American joke from 40 years ago, and a regional one at that, might have tickled the author but I would have preferred that he let everyone in on the joke with a mention in his "Afterword."

Don


Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:26 am
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Post Rum with that bit of extra kick....
Rum with that bit of extra kick...

In April 1813, Ned Myers* is among a group of navy volunteers aboard the "Scourge" on Lake Ontario fighting against the British in Canada during the War of 1812. At York, British General Roger Hale Sheaffe retreated after a brief engagement, destroying his powder supply, but leaving a number of guns, etc.

Ned relates "Among other things we recovered, was the body of an English officer, preserved in rum, which, they said, was the body of General Brock's. I saw it hoisted out of the "Duke of Gloucester," the man-of-war brig we captured, at Sackett's Harbour, and saw the body put in a fresh cask. I am ashamed to say, that some of our men were inclined to drink the old rum."

After some research, it appears that Ned might have been mistaken about the body being that of Major-General Isaac Brock, who died six months earlier at Queenston Heights and was promptly buried with great ceremony.

*From "Ned Myers" as told to James Fenimore Cooper.

Don


Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:02 am
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Post Rum with that bit of extra kick...
It would seem then that the story of Nelson's seamen on the Victory, downing the liquor from the leager in which his body was preserved on reaching England, might very well be true (there have been many doubters) seeing there is this precedent!

One wonders if the practice occurred rather more frequently than we know of!

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Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:57 am
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Post Re: Rum with that bit of extra kick...
Devenish wrote:
One wonders if the practice occurred rather more frequently than we know of!


The practice of preserving a body in spirits or the practice of drinking it off given half a chance?

I put a corpse in a barrel of whiskey in <i>No Quarter</i>, but that was mostly for ironic juxtaposition. How else you'd get a body from Sackets Harbor to England at the time, though, I have no idea. You could salt it down, I suppose, or even use the brine from a cask of salt junk. Which isn't near as poetic, of course, but I wonder if it'd work better.

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Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:17 pm
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Post Rum with that bit of extra kick...
Broos,

I meant the men drinking off the liquid, not the preserving of the body. I would imagine that deceased men, especially officers, were quite often transported in this way if they were to be brought home.

I have to make a correction in my use of the word 'precedent' since, of course, Nelson's case was before 1812 (perhaps that was the precedent)! In Nelson's instance his body was, I believe, originally placed in brandy which, when the Victory reached Gibraltar, was replace with spirits of wine for the journey home. Since much of this was done under the eye of Surgeon Beatty, presumably the spirits were thought to have better preserving properties than brandy. I would imagine also that there was a procedure for preserving bodies known to naval and army surgeons. Quite what happened to the brandy I don't know and Nelson's seamen, of course, drank of the liquid on reaching England out of respect for their Admiral!

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:49 am
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Post Re: Rum with that bit of extra kick...
Devenish wrote:
I would imagine that deceased men, especially officers, were quite often transported in this way if they were to be brought home.

I have to make a correction in my use of the word 'precedent' since, of course, Nelson's case was before 1812 (perhaps that was the precedent)!


I should have added a smiley face or the words "har har" to indicate I was joking. :D

Seriously, though, I'd think the trouble and expense would have made transporting a body this way a rare thing, used only for men of great importance, and only "if they were to be brought home," as Devenish says.

Drinking the brandy that the worshipped leader has been kept in is a striking piece of symbology. On the other hand, it could just be a casual slur against poor Jack Nastyface.

I realize we're getting pretty far away from sangridges, but does anybody know of any other instances of someone preserving a corpse in spirits until it can be buried at home?

Broos

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:16 pm
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Post Re: Rum with that bit of extra kick...
Broos Campbell wrote:
I realize we're getting pretty far away from sangridges, but does anybody know of any other instances of someone preserving a corpse in spirits until it can be buried at home?

There are a couple of examples in this thread: Burial at Home

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susan


Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Rum with that bit of extra kick...
susan wrote:
There are a couple of examples in this thread: Burial at Home


Thanks, Susan. Awfully considerate of Nelson to buy a barrel of rum to send himself home in.

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Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:17 pm
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From The Times, of January 20, 1795:

" .... Rear Admiral Bligh, and Major Tench of the Marines, were well on board the Prison Ship at Brest, on Wednesday the 8th instant - their chief food is salted pilchards, with some rice and oil ....."



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Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:25 am
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This is something of a fishy story, what with pilchards, tenches etc.

Watkin Tench at a young age had served in America and was a prisoner of the revolutionary forces for some months in 1778. His father, appropriately named Fisher Tench, was a dancing master in Chester.

Tench had subsequently sailed out to New South Wales with Captain Phillip in 1788 and wrote two very interesting books on the founding of the first settlement in Australia. One authority has it that he retired from the Royal Marines as a Lieutenant General but I have not been able to confirm this.

He had been taken by the French in HMS ALEXANDER 74 which made a notable fight of it against odds. Her captain, Richard Rodney Bligh, was promoted Rear Admiral before he was exchanged.


Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:04 pm
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